22 October 2011

Lock and load

-- EDMONTON -- The RCMP is beefing up the firepower of officers on patrol with a weapon now used by the army and police tactical squads. Starting next year, the C8 patrol carbine -- a cut-down version of a rifle similar to an M-16 -- will be made available to front-line RCMP members.

In an Oct. 19 memo obtained by CHED radio in Edmonton, departing Commissioner William Elliot tells Mounties the C8 will fill a gap in RCMP firearms capabilities.

He says based on tests, the carbine is a more accurate weapon that fires more bullets with less penetrating power, thus reducing the chance of someone else being hit.
Well... let's break that down. More accurate than what?

The C8 is certainly more accurate than a service sidearm, but, as anyone with a scoped deer gun could tell you, it's no sniper rifle. And there is a down side here... 'cos Mr. Elliot is talkin' out his ass about over-penetration.

I've seen .223 Remington punch through quarter inch mild steel plate. It'll go through standard (non-ceramic) body armour too. It's a good varmint round, but you really wanna be sure of your backstop before taking the shot.
Elliot says the C8 won't replace shotguns and other weapons the RCMP uses, but it will be made available to Mounties.

The need for the RCMP to have access to better weapons was highlighted in a report into the shooting deaths of four Mounties outside Mayerthorpe, Alta., on March 3, 2005.
Yup... access to a high capacity standoff firearm could've made the difference there. But so would taking this obvious sociopath off the street years before.
only one purpose, huh?A nice piece of hardware but, let's remember, there's no substitute for using that big computer between your ears.

Anyway... here's the skinny...
F e a t u r e s :

1 - Reduced length cold hammer forged heavy barrel
2 - Flash suppressor
3 - Bayonet lug
4 - TRI-AD 1TM MIL-STD-1913 accessory mount
5 - Special carbine chamber and gas system
6 - Accepts all STANAG magazines
7 - Integrated sight rail (Weaver or Picatinny)
8 - Optional ambidextrous controls
9 - Single or double sided sling loop
10 - Standard 4 position buttstock with no slip rubber butt pad


Mitchel44 said...


So, that would be full metal jacket military rounds then?

Always nice to know what they've got up their sleeve.

Neo Conservative said...

"mitchel44 says... "full metal jacket" military rounds"

uh, mitch... that'd be copper-jacketed projectiles... just like, say... the rounds i have for my ruger varmint rifle, or the 9mm or .40 s&w ammo police officers currently have in their service weapons.

fmj is terminology that describes the projectile. most ammunition sold these days is jacketed. there is absolutely nothing up anybody's sleeve here.

i know you're not saying you want police to load up expanding soft tip rounds that fragment & expand after impact & leave a fist-sized exit wounds.



Paul said...

It wouldn't matter if they used STANAG FMJ or a Jacketed Hollow Point. A FMJ (full metal jacket) round in this calibre will tumble and break apart in the body. This is how a smaller (essentially .22) bullet is effective for military use.

Also, since the bullet breaks up, it will not "over-penetrate" (ie: go through the bad guy and potentially kill an innocent bystander down the street.

I have seen video of tests in the States where a 5.56mm carbine had less penetration of some typical house construction than a 9mm SMG.

A 5.56mm bullet will also penetrate most body armour, which a shotgun pellet or duty handgun bullet will not, so this gives cops a weapon effective against a body armoured bad guy.

It also gives them the capability to safely shoot a bad guy at a significant distance. A shotgun with buckshot will keep all the pellets in a man sized target out to around 15 meters, after that, some of them will miss, potentially creating a hazard for bystanders. A rifle like the C-8 on the other hand, will easily keep it's rounds in the bad guy only, out to, and past 100 meters if the cop is trained.

Not sure why this is at all controversial. Cops have carried shotguns in the car forever, and European cops, SMGs.

Neo Conservative said...

"paul says... it will not "over-penetrate" (ie: go through the bad guy and potentially kill an innocent bystander down the street. I have seen video of tests"

no video here, paul... i can only tell you what i have seen with my own eyes.

some years ago i was at the range with a buddy and we were using the ipsc popper rig... which consisted of hinged quarter inch mild steel plates that could be knocked over & reset.

you could fire at this thing with shotgun pellets, .45acp & 9mm all day long and it merely left faint impressions on the plates.

at one point, my buddy thoughtlessly pulled out his mini-14 and started hammering away at the rig... and it vaporised holes in those quarter-inch thick metal disks.

turned out to be an expensive day at the range.

maybe there is some special frangible .223 round available nowadays for police entry teams, but, as i said... i only know what i saw with my own eyes.

you're gonna be using a weapon for home self defense... stay away from .223... you don't want rounds whistling through your house like it was made of butter.


Paul said...

To clarify, the video I was referring to WAS with frangible ammo (Nothing fancy, just a jacketed hollow-point). The video was of tests to decide if a 9mm SMG or a 5.56mm carbine was a better entry weapon for SWAT.

The conventional wisdom at the time was that a 9mm pistol bullet, even in longer barreled SMG would penetrate less construction than a 5.56mm rifle bullet, and that a rifle bullet was also more likely to completely penetrate a bad guy as well, thus an MP-5 SMG was the best option for SWAT.

They in fact determined that a hollow point 5.56mm bullet actually penetrated a little LESS typical construction (drywall, studs and insulation) than the 9mm, and that a 5.56mm would not "over-penetrate" the bad guy either.

It is surprising how well bullets can penetrate hard material, but equally, can often be stopped by softer material. A pistol bullet or shotgun pellet can easily penetrate a car door, and the bad guy hiding behind it, but will often stop int insulation of an exterior wall.

Likewise, a 5.56mm bullet will penetrate steel plate and bullet proof vests, but will be stopped by the body hiding behind it.

For informative and educational video on this subject, Google "The Box of Truth".

Mitchel44 should not get too hung up an the STANAG thing. Colt Canada (formerly Diameco) makes milspec rifles that conform to STANAG, since that is their main customer, and STANAG ammo is FMJ in conformity with the Hague accords (Not the Geneva Convention as most people think), but that doesn't mean you have to use NATO spec FMJ ammo.

Neo Conservative said...

"paul says... the video I was referring to WAS with frangible ammo"

okay, paul... that makes more sense... but correct me if i'm wrong... doesn't the geneva convention prohibit frangible rounds? i guess i just assumed hollow-points or dumdum type projectiles would be similarly frowned upon by civilian authorities.

but, hey... if they're not... why not use hydra-shock or black talon type munitions in proven, widely used assault/entry firearms like the mp5... or, for a little more oomph, the ump40?

as for .223 penetration... i've heard stories about guys shooting at old propane cylinders (i know, that's darwin award stuff) with fmj... turning the tanks into swiss cheese.

call me finicky... just doesn't seem like the optimum solution for non-battlefield applications.


Mitchel44 said...

I've seen both 5.56, 7.62 and .50 cal used against steel plate, helmets and soft frag vests, punched clean through, not pretty.

I had thought FMJ rounds included a covering right to the tip, as in all metal encased, as opposed to an exposed lead tip on most hunting rounds.

Seems to me that stopping power would be more useful to law enforcement.

Neo Conservative said...

"mitchel44 says... Seems to me that stopping power would be more useful to law enforcement. "

you're kidding, right?

the unicorns & rainbows crowd doesn't even want cops to have tasers.

the debate these days is about political correctness... not effectiveness.


Paul said...


Re: Geneva Convention ad frangible bullets. The Geneva Convention deals with the treatment of Prisoners of War and non-combatants. The treaty dealing with "dum-dum bullets" etc. are the Hague Accords.

The Hague Accords and the Geneva Convention together make up part of the law of war, and are only binding on the military forces of signatories who have ratified them.

They do not apply to civil forces (ie: police), in fact it can be argued that they do not apply when a signatory fights a non-signatory, or non national beligerant, but in practice most signatories do anyway.

The one exception is that we (ie: Nato forces in Afghanistan) will arm medics with rifles and not have them wear their red cross armband, since our opponent does not recognize their Geneve COnvention protection.

So nothing at all in either international or domestic law prevents a Canadian Police force from using expanding ammo, and in fact many do so, ironically because of liability concerns (ie: the "overpenetration" I spoke of in earlier posts. The RCMP uses hollowpoint ammo in their handguns, and so does the TPS

Neo Conservative said...

"paul says... The RCMP uses hollowpoint ammo in their handguns, and so does the TPS"

that is ironic... when you consider the difference in the wound tunnel vs. factory hardball. but, hey... once p.c. concern at a time.

thx also for explaining the diff between geneva & hague.