05 May 2008

There will be more people killed...

In traffic accidents this Victoria Day weekend... than have died after being tasered in Canada over the last five years...

Mr. Kosteckyj said Ms. Cisowski firmly believes that if police hadn't used the taser on her son that night he would still be alive.
What Mr. Kosteckyj fails to mention... is that this guy wouldn't have been tasered at all if he hadn't been wandering aimlessly in a daze for hours, before finally going apeshit and throwing furniture and computers around in a very public venue.

It's a tragedy... but it's a tragedy of his own making.

If your kid... and Robert Dziekanski was what, 40 - 50 years old... had, what these days is delicately referred to, as, "mental health issues", wouldn't you have made special arrangements, maybe had someone walk him off the plane?

And I wouldn't have cared what some ticket agent told me... I would have found out, if he wasn't there to meet me... one, was he even on the flight... and two, where did he go from there?

None of those things happened.

In this world... the real world... actions, and inaction, have consequences.

If there is a God... and so far I remain unconvinced of that... I want him to save us from the demented left.

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RELATED: Yup. Sure. Deadly.

As one British writer put it... "More people have been strangled by their own pants."

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UPDATE: Oh, boy... another link from Canadian Cynic

Well... let me just return the favour.

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FROM THE COMMENTS:
"or hey... crabby... i could really get into this game... 'if dziekanski had picked up a small child and was gonna toss him out a window... would it be okay to use a taser then'?"
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36 comments:

Brian said...

Gawd ... just what Canada needs , a guy with "mental health issues" who apparently has a "slightly" violent nature . I can only imagine how many weeks or months it would have been before he had harmed someone in Canada after going "ape" as he did in Vancouver Airport.

I wonder how many skilled immigrant applications he managed to sideline so he could get to the front of the line !

Neo Conservative said...

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"How on God's green earth does his 71 year old mother, with a whole 11 years in Canada, get to sponsor him as an immigrant at all, let alone a refugee?"

"If she has the financial resource, certainly let her sponsor him as a regular immigrant, and guarantee that her son will not immediately be a burden on the welfare state."


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Brian said...

The saddest part of this case , other than the guy dying , is that the entire MSM has gone into normal (for them) politically correct mode , without asking some pointed questions such as :

1) Why was he allowed into Canada in the first place.

2) If he had a "mental health problem" , why was he not met by a responsible person.

3) What drugs , including alcohol was he consuming during the flight?

4) There are consequences if you get off a plane in a foreign country , go "ape" and begin trashing the airport in a wild frenzy. In many countries he would have been shot as a terrorist , or severely beaten to be restrained . Either way he would probably have died.

Anonymous said...

The original story said he was a "Visitor" coming to see a relative, but as the MSM Hyped this issue to get more press I noticed the story morphed into "Immigrant tasered" by RCMP at Airport.

This sounds more like a Scam gone wrong because Canada has several Human-Smuggling rings that bring illegals in from Mexico via the USA and enter at a Ground Border access point , the victims are told to tell the Guards that they are "Visitors" or "Tourists" but once on canadian soil the Refugee Lawyers and Refugee Groups have things set up to shuttle them to Toronto, Montreal,Vancouver or large Cities with federal Offices for Social hand-outs to this down-trodden lost souls .

In this case i get the gut feeling that the Son had mental issues and was being sneaked into canada for a refugee Claim to get Free health care , Lawyers will tell you this is all a big lie and canada doesn't give a cent to Refugees , but Tax dollars do go to the Groups that support refugees and the Legal-Aid costs for refugees.

Too often the Media fears telling the truth because of the HRC complaints or lawsuits for Libel , so when a Scam artist is caught they quickly become the "Victim" of misleading claims bu Immigration Consultants overseas or in canada .
But we never seem to find these Consultants to charge them with fraud, it's just easier to screw the Tax-Payers by making the scammer a Victim the then create Public sympathy to let the bogus refugee stay , or the Media portrays a Non-Tax paying Illegal as a asset to canada even though they may have spent 10 years working for CASH and getting free Education for their children.

We need to focus on what causes the Taser to be used and not the
justification by a Officer for why they used it as a tool even though they were issued it as a Peace Officer under the Public standards for protecting all people in canada.

Just imaging if a Elderly person deplaning during the pre-Taser stage was harmed or traumatized by the mans violence and they had a heart-attck and died, the same Lawyers would be rushing in to Sue the Government for not Acting sooner to subdue the man.

The NDP is against the Taser but is also against the Gun , and this leaves the Criminals with the weapons to terrorize Citizens while Layton and Chow hide in Ottawa with their Private health-Care and Gold-Plated pensions.

Neo Conservative said...

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"anon says... In this case i get the gut feeling that the Son had mental issues and was being sneaked into canada for a refugee Claim to get Free health care"

sorry... i wouldn't let jeffy get away with a gut feeling so i have to call you on it too.

i think there's plenty of evidence this guy had some psych issues... but the rest of this is sheer speculation. tell me what you think... but base it on something more than your gut next time.

meanwhile... there was expert witness testimony at the enquiry...

"VANCOUVER–An independent expert on the effects of the Taser on the body told a public inquiry into police use of the weapon today that the risk of death or injury after being shocked is very small.

J. Patrick Reilly, an electrical engineer at Johns Hopkins University, was the opening witnesses at the inquiry in British Columbia. "There are hazards, but they are rare," Reilly summed up during his assessment.

He told the media after his presentation that compared to a bullet, the use of the Taser is a "no-brainer."


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¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

Compared to a bullet? Yes, as an alternative to shooting someone (in a situation where an officer in fact has shoot someone) it's a no-brainer. Nobody is saying that guns are better.

Tell me this: Had the police NOT had Tasers, what do you think the chances are that they would have had to shoot Robert Dziekanski?

Be honest, now.

Brian said...

Part of the problem lies in the "politically / racially correct" hiring practices of some of the police forces.

In the past , you had to be a sufficient size to join , but with hiring quotas , look how many small female officers there are.

A friend of mine remarked on this at a hockey game where there was a police presence. They were all small female officers , probably with very limited martial arts capability. His comment was if there was a physical fight , the small police officers would be forced to use a taser as in Vancouver.

If you have 200LB+ male officers , you may not need a taser as much , but if you have a 130LB female officer versus a 220LB man , you need extensive martial arts capability or a taser or a gun !

Neo Conservative said...

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"¢rÄßG®äŠŠ pronounces grandly... Tell me this: Had the police NOT had Tasers..."

crabby, welcome back. i see you're still living in the mythical land of "what if".

hey... maybe one of the officers had a bag of 'magical fairy dust' on his belt... or maybe they could have simply clubbed him to his knees.

or, hey... how about an actual example from real life...

"One of the officers fired his Taser, but for some unexplained reason it did not work properly. An officer was then forced to use his service pistol."

geez, crabby... how do you actually get to sleep at night... with all the police death squads roaming around outside your window?

take a big puff for me, huh?

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¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

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That's very clever. You avoided the question altogether. I've never seen that before.

Neo Conservative said...

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"brian says... In the past, you had to be a sufficient size to join, but with hiring quotas, look how many small female officers there are."

brian... good point.

my wife's cousin wanted, in the worst way, to be a police officer... but he's a strapping, six-foot plus, university educated anglo... they just told him he wasn't gonna make the quota.

he's doing something in publishing now... a casualty of society's insistence on "affirmative action."

so really... capability, qualification, or aptitude doesn't matter any more.

gotta balance up all the diversity numbers... that's what really counts.

must kinda cheapen it for members of a "visible minority" who work really hard to get where they wanna go.

if it was me, i know i'd be pissed.

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Neo Conservative said...

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"crabby whines... avoided the question altogether"

hmmm... did i? i thought "clubbed him to his knees" was a pretty good answer.

of course, with your pinko superpowers, you could have just subdued him with a jedi mind trick, right?

"luke... i am your father."

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¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...


I thought "clubbed him to his knees" was a pretty good answer.

I'm sorry. It's actually not.

Or are you saying that had the police not had Tasers, their most responsible course of action would have been to beat him with billy clubs until he could no longer stand up? Maybe I wasn't quite following.

Neo Conservative said...

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"crabby says... I'm sorry. It's actually not."

you know, crabby... you're right.

i'm gonna go with the "pixie dust"... i betcha there are way less fatalities than, say... three every year.

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¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

Neo, what is odd to me is that you actually act like a troll at your own blog. You don't engage, but apparently prefer instead to make smart-ass remarks at anyone who disagrees with you. It's like you're just heckling from the cheap seats, but at your own place.

Why bother?

Do you think that if their Tasers had all failed to launch, they would have had to shoot Dziekanski (in other words, did they use it as an alternative to lethal force)? If you don't want to participate in a genuine exchange of thoughts here, maybe you could just ask yourself the question.

Neo Conservative said...

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crabby says...what is odd to me"

well, crabby... i just noticed the link, but you'll be happy to know that puerile, profane little cc agrees with you.

but, the point is, this is my blog, and despite the fact that i sometimes choose to humour your inanity, i owe you nothing.

if you want "engagement" or "validation"... just truck on over to rabble.ca, or liblogs... they'll lick all up one side of you... and down the other.

or better yet, go visit cc... he's totally into that "enemy of my enemy" bs.

he'll just love you.

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¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

Nicely put.

Do you think that Dziekanski came close to being shot?

Neo Conservative said...

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"crabby asks... Do you think that Dziekanski came close to being shot?"

well... as i was actually on the other side of the country when this happened... i think i'd really have a hard time answering that particular question.

but as long as we're traveling back to "the land of make-believe"... how about, a guy wrestles with a cop and gets his hands near the officer's gun... would he, or she... "come close to being shot?"

or hey... crabby... i could really get into this game... "if dziekanski had picked up a small child and was gonna toss him out a window... would it be okay to use a taser then?"

i must say... while i sorta admire your boundless energy and enthusiasm... we're starting to get into the 'alien abduction' end of the pool here... plus i gotta go meet my kid off the school bus.

but don't let that stop you... i'll be back.

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Anonymous said...

Heh heh, when crabgrass(who really is quackgrass) visits, I put down my knitting...now where is that jug of round-up?

Neo Conservative said...

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well, to crabby's credit... i think he's coming from a sincere, if somewhat deluded, from my pov anyway, place.

he's not a bitter, venonmous, small-minded troll... like cc and his various lickspittle acolytes.

i think he really, really wants to save me from myself.

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mikmik said...

Neo:well... as i was actually on the other side of the country when this happened... i think i'd really have a hard time answering that particular question.

You don't answer any questions, you just avoid and/or insinuate:
or, hey... how about an actual example from real life...

"One of the officers fired his Taser, but for some unexplained reason it did not work properly. An officer was then forced to use his service pistol."


This your cheap way of saying he would've been shot without the guts to admit what you are saying?

¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

Put down your knitting? Why, thank you. By the way, doesn't the Roundup® burn your throat? I can't stand it.

Okay, Neo. Apparently I have to explain this a little more plainly. I am suggesting that Dziekanski posed nowhere near the level of threat that would necessitate the police shooting him (or hitting him with batons for that matter). It was therefore NOT used as an alternative to deadly force.

As an alternative to deadly force, I think the Taser is fantastic. It's much much better than shooting someone. However, even you must see that that is not really saying a lot. Used too casually, as I believe it was here, I think the Taser is an abomination, and such use of it should be counted as a crime.

Your best course of action now, far better than responding to me, would be to point and laugh.

Neo Conservative said...

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"mikmik says... This your cheap way of saying..."

no mik... this not.

but tell me, my friend, where you come from... what happens when people don't comply with a lawful order from a police officer?

do the cops just shrug their shoulders, turn around and go back to the station? yeah... there's a place i wanna live.

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Anonymous said...

...and then mikmik with the tiktik shows up...yeehaw!

Anonymous said...

do the cops just shrug their shoulders, turn around and go back to the station? yeah... there's a place i wanna live.

What a silly question. You should know better.

They secure the area, and isolate the guy. They call for backup if needed. They will not simply execute someone for not complying, but they won't "just walk away" either. As long as there is nobody in immediate danger they will wait them out. There was no hostage situation. No evidence has come forward that the police believed Dziekanski was armed. He was not endangering himself or anyone else.


The problem here is that the officers have not been trained that a Taser can kill someone. The manufacturer aggressively sues anyone who claims Tasers kill people.

The officers probably believed that it is an effective shortcut to standard procedure, since nobody ever dies from being Tasered.

Neo Conservative said...

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"crabgrass says... I think the Taser is an abomination, and such use of it should be counted as a crime."

hey, pal... i feel ya.

i think nobody over the age of 50, or 200 pounds, should wear polyester short-shorts... but i got a sneakin' suspicion nothin's gonna happen there either.

you really wanna save lives... join "mothers against drunk driving", or collect for the "heart and stroke foundation"... because if the media wasn't thrashin' the shit of this... nobody would even have noticed the 3 deaths per year.

in actual fact, i'd guess more people actually die yearly from the physical confrontation of being arrested... because there was no taser available to the officers.

so sorry, crabby... ya better go have another hit on the bong.

'cos i ain't buying.

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Neo Conservative said...

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"anon says... will not simply execute someone for not complying"

yup... that's what this was... "an execution."

stay away from the blue acid, man.

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Anonymous said...

yup... that's what this was... "an execution."
If you say so, you are entitled to your opinion, but I do not agree.

I was alluding to the fact that police are expected to enforce the law, not mete out punishments. As such, they are required to use the minimum necessary force to control the situation. Since he was not a danger to anyone, they had no need to kill him.

I think the police probably didn't think the Taser was deadly, since such information is being actively suppressed by the litigous manufacturer.

Is it your position that Dziekanski deserved die? His actions warranted his death? If so, the police did in fact play judge, jury and executioner. If not, then you should consider that the use of a Taser in this case was excessive.

stay away from the blue acid, man.

Why do you use drug references to belittle anyone who disagrees with you? Are you incapable of forming a coherent argument? Or are you hoping to get more hits on your site by being deliberately argumentative?

Neo Conservative said...

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"anon says... he was not a danger to anyone, they had no need to kill him"

well, gomer... you let me pick up a computer monitor and smash you over the head... we'll see how "not dangerous" you feel it is then.
the airport security guards were intimidated enough to call real cops.

oh, and here's a tip... if a cop ever orders you to get down on the ground... do it. do it immediately. you can get your lawyer to file a complaint later... but these guys aren't there to play "hippie fuckaround" with you.

you know, sorta the same way it's not my job here... to humour you.

cops get this shit all night long... drunks, junkies and people with diminished capacity like dziekanski... and the way you deal with it... is swift, disproportionate force.

of course it's sad when anyone dies... but mr. dziekanski dealt the cards... and the fates decided it was time to call him home.

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Anonymous said...

well, gomer... you let me pick up a computer monitor and smash you over the head... we'll see how "not dangerous" you feel it is then.
Which account of this incident had him smashing monitors over peoples' heads?

the airport security guards were intimidated enough to call real cops.
It is their job to call the police to deal with any potential problem. The security guards are expected to observe and call the police who are professionally trained to defuse situations.

oh, and here's a tip... if a cop ever orders you to get down on the ground... do it. do it immediately.
I would if he was speaking in English, or possibly I would understand him in French. But if he yelled at me in Polish, I would probably stay standing and keep my hands visible. I would assume the officer knows he is in an international airport and would realize I don't speak the language.

you can get your lawyer to file a complaint later... but these guys aren't there to play "hippie fuckaround" with you.
Why would they want to play some hippie game with me? I don't look like a hippie.

you know, sorta the same way it's not my job here... to humour you.
What is your job then? Exactly?

cops get this shit all night long... drunks, junkies and people with diminished capacity like dziekanski... and the way you deal with it... is swift, disproportionate force.
Not the professional police officers I know. They use appropriate force. They take note of their surroundings. Since they are not in some back alley, they can assume this guy is not some drunk or junkie.

of course it's sad when anyone dies...
Finally, a hint of compassion.

but mr. dziekanski dealt the cards... and the fates decided it was time to call him home.
No, he was attacked with a weapon that is inappropriate for the situation. The manufacturer of said weapon claims this weapon never killed anyone. That is the real problem, the officers' training should be such that Tasering someone happens only if the alternative was to shoot them.

¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

Anonymous: "That is the real problem, the officers' training should be such that Tasering someone happens only if the alternative was to shoot them."

Any chance of you addressing this central point, Neo? This is really what this is all about, and you've skated around it all day long.

Could you please, please, answer even one argument? Running around with your tail between your legs making fart jokes isn't really working for me, in terms of your credibility.

Also, like Anonymous (7:57pm), I hadn't heard that Mr. Dziekanski had assaulted anyone with a computer monitor. Or even while shifting furniture. Could you point me to a link for that? I may have missed something rather fundamental here (this could be huge).

Neo Conservative said...

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"anon says... Which account of this incident had him smashing monitors over peoples' heads?"

the account i read had him throwing computers and furniture around the room. it's what provoked a police response.

now i could address all your points, one by one, but we're up to 30 comments here and ol' crabby still apparently isn't satisfied.

i think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

you might wanna save some of that liberal compassion and outrage for, say... the 1200 farmers killed while growing your food, the 10,000 folks who die each year from medical mistakes or the thousands killed or maimed by drunk drivers.

i know, i know... i'm a horrible, soulless monster. you'll be happy to know you're in good company... apparently cc feels the same.

better head over to his blog for some comfort and hugs.

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Neo Conservative said...

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"crabgrass says... the real problem, the officers' training should be such that Tasering someone happens only if the alternative was to shoot them"

so you get to call the "central" point, huh?

sorry... police officers have a right to go home to their wives and children too... without rolling around on the ground being injured, or losing their guns and getting killed.

unfortunate outcome, but dziekanski called the tune.

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¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

No he didn't.

Neo Conservative said...

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oh, crabby... i thought you had moved on to piss all over the memory of a brave canadian soldier.

i guess he's just not as worthy as robert dziekanski.

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¢rÄbG®äŠŠ said...

You're the one pissing on a fallen soldier, Neo. Have some respect.

Bye bye.

Neo Conservative said...

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"crabby calls... You're the one pissing"

the cry of the 'lesser leftbot loon'... "because i said so."

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